Sir Bob sceptical on Euro vote plans (From Essex County Standard)

Being sceptical means nothing if you don't back it up with action. Hopefully if there is a referendum people will be wise enough to vote to stay in, but we have a fair few years of uncertainty now thanks to the PM's decision, and that's hardly going to bring good conditions for trade etc. Of course, the whole thing is irrelevant as surely the Tories won't get a majority after screwing up so badly so far.

Russell calls himself a "liberal democrat" what part of the word "democrat" doesn't he understand?

As I always say when I post on here I don't give a toss for any political party (whether they be Tory, LibDem, Labour, UKIP, Greens or BNP).

That said if Britain is going to be part of a federal Europe and ruled from Brussels then I want a vote on that matter and I don't want a vote in 2017, I want a straight forward In or Out vote and I want it with before the next General Election.

With regard to Russell he's well past any usefulness that he once offered as an MP. Indeed he's shows his true colours the longer he's part of the coalitions shambles.

Some people say he destined for the House of Lords. Isn't that where Lord Hanningfield hangs out?

GreensteadResident wrote:
Russell calls himself a "liberal democrat" what part of the word "democrat" doesn't he understand?

As I always say when I post on here I don't give a toss for any political party (whether they be Tory, LibDem, Labour, UKIP, Greens or BNP).

That said if Britain is going to be part of a federal Europe and ruled from Brussels then I want a vote on that matter and I don't want a vote in 2017, I want a straight forward In or Out vote and I want it with before the next General Election.

With regard to Russell he's well past any usefulness that he once offered as an MP. Indeed he's shows his true colours the longer he's part of the coalitions shambles.

Some people say he destined for the House of Lords. Isn't that where Lord Hanningfield hangs out?

Who cares what you want? I want
a declaration that we shall stay in the EU for the next 500 years, but I'm not going to get it, so I am not asking for it.
Just remember what you may have been told as a child: "I want doesn't get." If you weren't told that, then you should have been.

Boris wrote:

GreensteadResident wrote:
Russell calls himself a "liberal democrat" what part of the word "democrat" doesn't he understand?

As I always say when I post on here I don't give a toss for any political party (whether they be Tory, LibDem, Labour, UKIP, Greens or BNP).

That said if Britain is going to be part of a federal Europe and ruled from Brussels then I want a vote on that matter and I don't want a vote in 2017, I want a straight forward In or Out vote and I want it with before the next General Election.

With regard to Russell he's well past any usefulness that he once offered as an MP. Indeed he's shows his true colours the longer he's part of the coalitions shambles.

Some people say he destined for the House of Lords. Isn't that where Lord Hanningfield hangs out?

Who cares what you want? I want
a declaration that we shall stay in the EU for the next 500 years, but I'm not going to get it, so I am not asking for it.
Just remember what you may have been told as a child: "I want doesn't get." If you weren't told that, then you should have been.

Boris - I find your comments very offensive but I won't go complaining to the Gazette to have your post pulled because I believe in free speech.

But tell me this why are you afraid of the people of the United Kingdom having a vote on whether we should be ruled from Brussels?

Why are you and people like Russell ( bearing in mind Russell claims to be a democrat) afraid of democracy?

By the way many people want a vote on this issue and I never said which way I would vote - BUT - I believe that a vote is necessary and the right thing to do as it will change forever how this country is governed.

GreensteadResident wrote:

Boris wrote:

GreensteadResident wrote:
Russell calls himself a "liberal democrat" what part of the word "democrat" doesn't he understand?

As I always say when I post on here I don't give a toss for any political party (whether they be Tory, LibDem, Labour, UKIP, Greens or BNP).

That said if Britain is going to be part of a federal Europe and ruled from Brussels then I want a vote on that matter and I don't want a vote in 2017, I want a straight forward In or Out vote and I want it with before the next General Election.

With regard to Russell he's well past any usefulness that he once offered as an MP. Indeed he's shows his true colours the longer he's part of the coalitions shambles.

Some people say he destined for the House of Lords. Isn't that where Lord Hanningfield hangs out?

Who cares what you want? I want
a declaration that we shall stay in the EU for the next 500 years, but I'm not going to get it, so I am not asking for it.
Just remember what you may have been told as a child: "I want doesn't get." If you weren't told that, then you should have been.

Boris - I find your comments very offensive but I won't go complaining to the Gazette to have your post pulled because I believe in free speech.

But tell me this why are you afraid of the people of the United Kingdom having a vote on whether we should be ruled from Brussels?

Why are you and people like Russell ( bearing in mind Russell claims to be a democrat) afraid of democracy?

By the way many people want a vote on this issue and I never said which way I would vote - BUT - I believe that a vote is necessary and the right thing to do as it will change forever how this country is governed.

GR, I didn't want to be offensive, but you must admit your original post was rather childish, in the bit where you said "I don't want a vote in 2017, I want a straight forward In or Out vote and I want it with before the next General Election".
You didn't say which way you would vote, but you didn't need to, because if you were happy to stay in, you would not be calling for a referendum.
Do not lump me in with Russell, for while I agree with him about marine conservation zones, I disagree with him on most other issues.
I am a better democrat than you, for while you see no difference between any of the six parties that you listed, I can see the huge differences and I always vote, to try to achieve the most satisfactory outcome.
For better or worse we have the democracy that we have. Proportional representation would be better, but we are not going to have that.
We had a referendum about the EEC (as it then was) in 1975, and that settled matters. There is no need for another. There may be a case for a referendum on whether or not we should ditch the pound for the euro, but that is not going to happen either.
The only reason that Cameron announced this in/out referendum is because he fears losing votes to UKIP.
His reason to hold the referendum in several years' time is that he hopes it will win him the next general election. You will have to pinch your nose and vote Tory, because if they don't win then the referendum is not going to happen.
And if we have to have this referendum, then there has to be plenty of time for both sides to put their arguments, for this is a very complex matter and not one to be settled on the basis of stupid newspaper scare stories.

To Boris - As far as I am concerned you were offensive and your follow up reply is even more so. With regard to the referendum about the EEC, people were sold that referendum on the basis that the EEC was just a free trade organisation . The EU aims to be a Federal State. Barroso has even outlined his vision for a federal Europe ... as “a federation of nation states.” As I say nothing like the EEC.

Finally with regard to your line "I want a declaration that we shall stay in the EU for the next 500 years ..." Many years ago there was a fella called Hitler and he wanted a reich of a 1000 years, twice as a long as your asking for but Hitler's Reich only last 12 years. When I was a child I was taught be careful what you wish for. If you weren't told that, then you should have been.

I still want a vote before 2015 and as far as I see it the only people who don't want a vote are people who hate democracy or the results. I don't know how I will vote in an In / Out vote on the EU but I still want a vote and when the votes are counted I will have to live with the result - that's democracy. Now Boris are you a supporter of democracy or not? I can't be clearer on my position.

GR, you seem to be take offence very easily. It seems that whatever I say, you will find offensive, so I'll move on.
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You conveniently omitted the bit where I said "so I am not asking for it". We all have our different aspirations. Yours is for an early referendum. Mine isn't.
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What is your problem with a federation of nation states? Mr. Barroso seems a much more reasonable person than David Cameron or any of his recent predecessors. Even if you don't like him, he won't be there for ever.
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Political institutions evolve over time. The Britain of to-day has evolved into something radically different from the Britain of the 1950s and 1960s. In some respects it is better, in others it is worse. Just the same with the EEC/EU. I assume that, like me, you are old enough to have voted in 1975. And we are living with the result. So there is no need to change things now.
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Your point about being careful what you wish for is well taken, and I admit that I don't remember being taught about that. I accept your criticism there.
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What i do not accept is your harping on about whether I support democracy or not. You clearly do not, for you see no difference between any of the six parties that you mention. You appear to think that only one issue, the EU, is important. Life is more complex that that. You are not going to get a referendum before 2015 because, as I have already explained (and you have not refuted) an issue like in/out of the EU is so complex that a lot of time is needed for everyone to study the issue and for campaigners to make the case.
If you can't be bothered to respond carefully to my arguments, then this dialogue is a waste of your time and mine.

I'm fed up with this. Comparing Boris with Hitler is far more offensive than anything he said. There is not going to be a Federal Europe before 2015 so you don't by your own rules need a referendum.

Ditto. I assume we'll also be offered a referendum on whether we want to be "ruled" from Westminster, and then Chelmsford?

Thanks, Reginald and Simon. We don't always agree on other things, but it's good to hear some voices of reason on an emotive topic like this.